Les bang-back sur FX3

wims a écrit:Pour qu'un jeu reste un bon jeu (encore plus si c'est un jeu avec un peu de compète et des leaderboards), il ne faut pas qu'il y ait de différences qui privilégieraient l'achat d'un matos, car au bout du compte ça favorisera toujours le plus riche.

FabeChe a écrit:Steam prend en charge toutes les manettes "X-input compatible"(théoriquement toute manette produite à partir de 2006), via son gestionnaire qui permet de totalement modifier tout les paramètres d'une manette... Donc oui Steam prend la gestion de la manette à son compte quand tu joues a un jeu Steam et même quand Steam est simplement allumé, c'est pas moi qui le dit c'est Steam... Désolé...

wims a écrit:
Bref ce n'est pas qu'une question de "meilleur" matos, ou de "budget sportif". Faut juste savoir un truc con : que le stick de la DS4 est le mieux adapté pour les bangbacks. Et moi franchement si vous m'aviez rien dit, ben j'en serais resté à ma manette XBox sans voir le problème.

zKnight79 a écrit:J'ai testé avec le pad 360 avec Big Picture,
je pense avoir passé un bang-back (j'ai eu une seule tentative) aussi puissant qu'avec la DS4.

J'attends vos retour sur la manette de One avec Big Picture.

Zed to Deep a écrit:Hello Deep,

As Wims should have told you, i have some feedback to give to you about nudge strength with different gamepads in PFX3 on Steam. we prefer talking to you directly instead of posting on Zen or Steam forums and have people starting a witch hunt for something that could turn to nothing.

1st of all, I want to say that i'm ok with the way the nudge is currently working.
It allows me to be able to achieve some good bang-backs in a way that is not random.
For me, it's just a matter of skill and timing.
I'm far away from achieving a 1/1 ratio, but i think i'm able to achieve around 1 on 4 attempts, depending on the table.

But there is something that might be an issue.
People in the Lup's Club are using different platforms, and our Steam users are using different controllers.
As some members are recording a lot of their gameplay, and now even playing live on Twitch, it appeared that some of our members noticed that there was a difference between their nudge strength and other players nudge strength.
We started discussing about which controller we were using, and our feeling about our nudge strength.

After some completely delusional assumptions of some of our members,
like a gamepad physical problem that could empower the strength of the nudge,
or a difference of physic in the game due to the view used,
I decided to make a programmatic test on some of my gamepads in order to see if there was a difference between them, as i own a Sony DualShock 4, a XBbox 360 wired controller, a Nintendo Switch Pro Controller and a Logitech F310.
I've coded a small interface to get the numeric values of the sicks's axis provided by the XInput driver, using the Monogame library (http://www.monogame.net/).
(FYI, i also added buttons, triggers, ...)
You can find the source code here : https://github.com/zKnight79/GamePadTest
(no great code here, i made it quickly)

Here is what i stated with my 4 gamepads :
While using my interface in a standard way (double-clicking the .exe), i wasn't able to test the DS4, which were claimed to be overpowered, as it's not XInput native. Same for the Switch Pro Controller.
So, i launched my interface through the Steam client (games/add non-Steam games).
It made me able to test my other 2 gamepads, that were supported by Big Picture.
And that's where things became to be a little weird.

When pushing a stick, X and Y axis values should range from -1 to 1,
and the (X,Y) vector should have a length between 0 (not pushed) and 1 (max pushed).
In theory, when pushing at 45°, top-right, X=0.71 and Y=0.71, resulting in a length of 1.

Here is a summary of my tests,
as semi-colon separated values to be easily pasted in Excel,
with my pads,
with and without Big Picture support when possible,
for the left stick pushed at 45°, top-right :

Gamepad;X-axis value;Y-axis value;Vector length
Xbox360 (without Big Picture);0.70;0.70;0.99
F310 (Xinput, without Big Picture);1.00;1.00;1.41
DS4;0.86;0.87;1.22
Switch Pro Controller;1.00;1.00;1.41
Xbox360 (with Big Picture);0.82;0.90;1.22
F310 (Xinput, with Big Picture);1.00;1.00;1.41
F310 (Générique, with Big Picture);1.00;1.00;1.41

As you can see, the XBox 360 controller don't give the same values with or without Big Picture support.
The Axis values are nerfed by Big Picture.
We can assume that the nerfed value apply to the DS4 too.
And i'm even more suprised by the F310 and the Switch Pro Controller values.
But in-game, i don't feel these controllers as more powerful as the DS4 and the XBox360 with Big Picture.

I don't know how your developpers are handling the left-stick values for nudge strength computation,
If they compute the vector length and they normalize the vector if it's length is greater than 1, i think it's OK.
But if they use the value "as is", an XBox 360 controller will have more nudge strength with Big Picture support that it have without, and DualShock 4 users will also get an advantage, ...

I don't have any feedback to give to you about other platforms.
I think that if something needs to be fixed, it should not be platform-wise but it should be applied to every platform in the "non platform specific" part of the source code.
Because what can be true on Steam can be true on PS4, XBox One or Switch.


I really hope that there is nothing to fix and that this kind of differences are already handled by the code of the game.


I hope i was understandable.
Don't hesitate to ask me if you need more informations.

Best regards,
zKnight79, from the Lup's Club.

P.S.: I have a record of this message if you need it, i can give it to you from another messaging system.

Deep a écrit:Hey there,
wow this is some investigation you made Interesting. We use mostly X360 wired and Xbox one controllers at ZEN so we basically tweak things using these (and keyboard). However based on many feedbacks I lowered the strength of the nudge on the Williams tables so you won't be able to do bangbacks like you can't on a real machine. I know many of you guys got used to the bang back feature but there were MANY feedbacks about the nudge being ridiculously strong compared to real life.
So I had to lower it, however in the near future it is not impossible to set it a bit stronger in normal single player (and only there, not in classic) if there will be feedbacks about it
So maybe I can make bang backs possible again in normal mode (old physics)

wims a écrit:

So I had to lower it, however in the near future it is not impossible to set it a bit stronger in normal single player (and only there, not in classic) if there will be feedbacks about it

Par contre là j'ai compris qu'ils pourraient généraliser dans un avenir proche la physique "Williams" aux parties classiques (pas celles avec pouvoirs, comme c'est le cas dans Williams Pinball), si les retours vont dans ce sens.

Veuve Pinsec a écrit:

wims a écrit:

So I had to lower it, however in the near future it is not impossible to set it a bit stronger in normal single player (and only there, not in classic) if there will be feedbacks about it

Par contre là j'ai compris qu'ils pourraient généraliser dans un avenir proche la physique "Williams" aux parties classiques (pas celles avec pouvoirs, comme c'est le cas dans Williams Pinball), si les retours vont dans ce sens.

Ce que je comprends là, ça concernerait que les tables Williams, dont la force du nudge à été diminuée ( pour tous les modes) mais qui pourrait être revue à la hausse pour le mode normal uniquement. (c'est mon interprétation)

zKnight79 a écrit:Et pour les tables Williams, en revanche, ils vont essayer d'empêcher les bang-backs en classique,
et ils "nerferont" peut-être le nudge en mode "avec pouvoirs".

Veuve Pinsec a écrit:

wims a écrit:

So I had to lower it, however in the near future it is not impossible to set it a bit stronger in normal single player (and only there, not in classic) if there will be feedbacks about it

Par contre là j'ai compris qu'ils pourraient généraliser dans un avenir proche la physique "Williams" aux parties classiques (pas celles avec pouvoirs, comme c'est le cas dans Williams Pinball), si les retours vont dans ce sens.

Par contre, il y à des topics sur les forum de  Zen et Steam où il est question d'appliquer la nouvelle physique sur l'ensemble des tables zen.